Astrological Issues

Dear Georgette,

Lots of questions.

First, I don't think we can really say that we have a horoscope when there is no time. It's not just that we do not have the Moon nor even any of the aspects to the Moon. We do not have the ASC nor any aspects to it. We don't have any houses much less the 6th or 12th. Realistically, we don't actually have a chart for a person, just for a day. Given how much astrology depends on birth data, not having the time is truly a bit more than trying to do a chart with one hand tied behind the back. It's more like one hand tied behind the back and both eyes blindfolded. Sure, we can pick up some major transits and score a few hits, but we are going to have more misses than hits. When you think how different twins often are, you can imagine what an enormous difference the time makes.

Last on this part of your question. I mentioned on one of the posts that I used to work with a psychologist. Among other things, she wanted to do a study of astral twins so she put some notices in journals asking people to participate in this study. However, as fate would have, the very first person she saw as a client the next day was born 45 minutes apart from her, one in New York, the other in New Jersey across the river. They both had Cancer rising but completely different angular planets (now remember how important the first wound is in my work and you see that 10% might have been a more accurate figure than 90%.)

The psychologist has Pluto rising and she is a very strong individual. The client had a 12th house Pluto with Neptune angular. The psychologist was an overachiever (dynamic planet conspicuous); the client was more or less a loser who went from one drifter to another, had children and gave them up for adoption, etc., etc.

However, when they spoke about their parents, they really echoed each other, and this, of course, is psych 101: mom-pop psychology. The aspects to their Moons and Suns were the same.

Interesting twists and turns developed. The psychologist, when first studying this "case", put tremendous emphasis on how together and advantaged she was in comparison to the client and this tended to enhance all the Pluto - Neptune contrasts, but as time went on, the psychologist's progressed chart became the client's chart!

I think I'll leave that as a cliff hanger!

The next big question was how many systems of medical astrology there are. I can't answer this. I feel there are approximately as many systems as there are people purporting to understand medical astrology.

I am more or less conversant with the work of all of my peers as well as predecessors.

The point is that sooner or later, the astrology has to interface with a system of healing. It is easiest to point this out in the context of psychological astrology.

There is nothing inherent in the chart that says the chart should be interpreted as a psychological portrait or predictional module or spiritual blueprint. Every pair of eyes that looks at the chart will see what that pair of eyes has been trained to recognize, understand, and interpret . . . and the skill to do this varies enormously.

Astrologers used to play games to see if astrology works. For instance, get ten pairs of murderers and their victims and see if astrology can identify the criminal from his victim. This test scored 50% "proving" that astrology is not a science and therefore not based on credible assumptions.

I challenged this conclusion because I wanted to know who the astrologers were who participated in this trial because if even one of them got 100%, we need to know how that person beat the odds so well.

In any event, if a doctor or health care practitioner is already trained in some modality, the first thing that person wants to do with medical astrology is interface it with the system already known. So, there will be people who try to use allopathic diagnoses so as to differentiate hepatitis A from hepatitis B . . . which is absurd to me. Any laboratory can produce that information. The horoscope presents information about life experience. There is nothing to say that how a person processes disease is the same just because allopathic medicine has to label a disease before it can treat it.

If a homeopath, one wants to find some kind of resonance between the gazillions of unique patterns in a horoscope and the gazillions of homeopathic remedies multiplied by the gazillions of potencies for each, not to mention the combinations that are so popular but probably making Hahnemann an angry ghost.

If a nutritionist, one absolutely has to have some neat fit between vitamins and minerals and planets and signs . . . and so on ad infinitum.

The horoscope does not however show any of this . . . in my opinion, an opinion that would obviously not make me popular in some circles.

The best example I can give is of identical twins born four minutes apart. They were both in the back seat of the car when it crashed. One thought his arm was broken but it was merely sprained. The other became quadriplegic.

For all intents and purposes, they had the same chart . . . ah, now you understand with Lise? If a predictional astrologer, that one degree difference on the house cusps has to prove something and if the proof doesn't just jump out at you, you can always do a sidereal chart or a ninth harmonic or a 600th harmonic. At some point, we have to decide whether there are undiscovered frontiers that will make astrology a perfect mathematical masterpiece or whether the horoscope discusses experience, the more subjective events that constitute the part of us that is immortal (isn't this where you walked in, in the thanatology discussion?)

The twins had many similar events with similar timing so it would have been very tempting to use their parents' divorce and the auto accident to rectify their charts. Then, we'd have two identical charts, but we absolutely know they were not born by C-section and did not take their first breath at the same time.

They stayed together after the accident, the one brother suffering the limitations of his body and his wheelchair and the other brother suffering the limitations he accepted as a consequence of devotion to his invalid brother. They went to doctors and gurus together and asked the same questions about life, so should we be looking at the outer or the inner?

The one brother died and you can be absolutely certain they are still communing with each other because their bond was so tight.

So, the only question I can answer is about my astrology. It is energetic, it is alchemical, it is psychospiritual, it is not bounded by time, only by space, and there is not much emphasis on that most transitory part of everything: the miserable ego.

. . . but I, too, fell into the temptation of needing a modality and I chose Ayurveda because the work of interfacing astrology to Ayurveda had already been done by the Rishis!

Re. Lise's chart-

I'm feeling slightly bemused by this insistence on precise birth data, because otherwise it isn't "a proper chart". Like The Fool on the Tarot key, I was ready to pitch in and explore various possibilities, in a spirit of adventure and experimentation. If my hypotheses didn't work, so what? I don't believe any work is ever wasted. But then I have the time to experiment, and I suppose others do not.

Nick Campion once pointed out that the Faculty chart calculation forms always used to include the words, "birth time as given", as if in recognition of the fact that the time may be inaccurate, as here in Britain birth times aren't recorded. He argued that someone could go to an astrologer and say "I was born at half past four", have a perfectly good reading, and then later discover they were in fact born at half past ten. He felt that most astrologers could make any chart fit any situation but the main point was, to use the chart to come up with useful conclusions.

All this blew up around the time of the new moon on April 23rd, which was at 3 32 Taurus, so perhaps this degree is significant for Lise, as well as for Georgette and Ingrid? Also, Lise reminds me somewhat of a close friend, who has her Moon in Scorpio in the 5th house, and who would have loved to have children but her husband was found to be infertile. My friend is also an artist, and follows a spiritual path but her Moon is not in aspect to Neptune.

I would have liked to suggest that we just choose a time for Lise's chart and then see what we can come up with. But maybe I'm an anarchist.

You are definitely an anarchist!

Oh great!

But I've also got progressed Saturn quintile Uranus and that sounds good to me!

Yes, but I I won't roll over even if you are enjoying your iconoclasm!

While it is easy to obsess on different tools, the fact is that we are missing a lot more than just nuance when dealing with untimed charts. Here's the short list:

Moon: in my system it describes the entire karmic history and psychology of the individual as well as the physiological functioning, including but not limited to, all the endocrine glands as they are directed by the pituitary body.

ASC: is the gateway of the soul and is always in a relationship to the MC which is destiny. No spiritual or esoteric astrology is possible without this.

Missing these two pieces of information is enough to make for a total loss of access to everything in the unconscious. This would force us to work exclusively in third dimensional reality and to abandon everything that is linked to our immortality.

Houses: we have no houses without a timed chart. We cannot therefore even know where a planet wants to operate.

First wound: this is an important part of my system because it explains imprinting and deep psychological trauma. It is impossible to calculate it without a time.

Progressions: are also impossible to calculate so you lose all information about prior uses of planets during turning point events in life.

Lots of other techniques are also impossible to use so, as I said, this is the short list.

Ingrid,

I have several questions:
The three selves: Sun, Moon and Asc. are they
functioning collectively or independently most of
the time. Are the schisms between Sun plus Moon to the Asc. or within only one of the selves or
any combination - more from a philosophical approach than I imagine the aspects of the astrology chart..

I have been asked to help a few people who want
to assist the soul of someone locally that we know (not all that well) who took her own life this week. When I looked up the dictionary for a definition of the soul it sounds like a description of the Moon so now I've become uncertain as to how to describe the Soul let alone how to help the soul of this person or even if it is required. When I read that the Asc is both the gateway for the soul and the soul I get a visual picture of the soul stuck in the gate unable to function.

Another question: When Ceanne DeRohan talks about the Will as the Emotional Body and the healing and evolving of that Body which of the
selves relates to the Will or Emotional Body.

The last one: I'm working on the 1st Wound homework and the two charts both have Saturn on
the MC as the wounds. In looking at the differences and similarities of these wounds
what would determine if a wound in any chart is more recent, a wound of this life, a recent past one or one of many lifetimes.

Thanks

Wow, Elgin!

These are subjects for three whole books, but let's see how far I get.

However, first, let's look at the suicide. Whenever I am in over my head, I petition the higher beings to render whatever assistance is needed. I do not presume to know my way around every dimension, much less the portal where this being appears to be stuck.

I think I'll make separate posts out of each question . . . and maybe get a cup of coffee to fuel my brain!

You cannot, of course, believe everything you read, but most writers in esotericism maintain that those who commit suicide are detained, but you can still ask the angelic realm to check out the situation and see what they feel to do.

So far as the three selves are concerned, the question is obviously very advanced. In the first batch of lessons, my only intention was to make the Sun, Moon, and ASC stand out clearly as the three key significators they are. In asking people to write about their own selves, I was not expecting the same answers in the first lesson as I am in the last. During the third year lessons, the integration of the selves is a major effort.

Though you didn't mention huna, the three selves as I use them are very much equivalent to the Hawaiian terms. The Moon would relate to the unihipili except that I do not subscribe the view of this unihipili as it was taught by many. I am afraid to confuse people. Isabel Hickey became a major student of huna towards the end of her life, but she didn't use the Hawaiian terminology. She called the lower self her "subbie" for subconscious. She felt that this part of us is always a child with the maturity of 3-6 year old. Out of approaches such as hers and others, a whole body of holistic work evolved around working with the inner child.

I am probably closer these days to Ceanne DeRohan in that I do not see emotions as representative of any sort of immaturity but rather as historic parts of ourselves. The emotional body may have a component that is stuck in an old experience, but this should not ever be mistaken as the whole story. Wisdom is also part of the emotional self as are the gifts we received from the Divine Mother.

So, my point is more that patriarchal societies and religions promoted hierarchical concepts of higher and lower and they projected the same celibacy on God as they had assumed in their roles as monks. Out of this celibacy, there can be no creation and hence no explanation for the existence we experience as children of God, not children, but Divine Children.

Part of my work here is penance for my own many monastic lifetimes, an apology for years of wishing to escape feelings, escape the wheel of rebirth, and escape karma. These penances were not, however, assumed because of crying from my subconscious but rather merger of the spiritual and psychological components of my own being. I had to come to the point where they did not have separate agendas.

This brings me to the next point which is that what Ceanne calls the "gap" is very similar to what I refer to as schism. Ceanne is quite adamant about her terms as they have very specific meanings, and she actually doesn't like it when people come from a different direction and want to interface their apparent knowing with her system.

However, I will break the rules a bit and say that I feel that while Ceanne and I have reached the places we are by somewhat different processes, the realizations do have a lot in common. Ceanne sees an original "smack" that impacts the feminine so drastically that it is driven away, creating the gap.

I don't see it quite so dynamically because I see the feminine as more patient and passive, likely to stay where it is and see what comes next. The misery is compounded when what comes next is more of the same rather than an apology. The healing and closure comes when the feminine is approached with something She can understand which means that She recognizes contrition, but this is a feeling and She is Feeling. The masculine is thought so She rarely does feel what She needs to feel.

How this all evolved is through my work as a healer because I understood that illness is in the feminine. The masculine has the illusion that it is fine the way it is because it is not reflective and has a very difficult time dealing with reflections. The feminine is, however, exactly that and being more spherical (as opposed to linear), the feminine can keep going over the same emotional territory again and again until it understands.

This subject really is a book, not a post.

Anyway, I had a lot of trouble with Ceanne's use of the term "Will." I had used this word in a completely different context and had to learn it through Ceanne's experience to see that in the context she uses the word, it is correct. I had used "will" in reference to Divine Will or Plutonian determine, not as Ceanne has in relationship to the feminine power to discriminate and from this place of knowing to make conscious choices. This is the feminine's main defense against experiences which have been so harmful to her.

Anyway, my system is a little different from Ceanne and I can discuss these things and agree that neither of us is actually misleading anyone.
She is acting more as the voice of God. I was going to say something else, but I definitely heard her say, "I channel God." I don't want to get into this any more at this time because Ceanne and I have had long discussions about this, and she sees it this way, but she, too, is working at the healing through awakening to the conscience and consequences of an unconscious behavior with catastrophic effects on the feminine, a feminine that has been driven into exile by pain. This part of her system is totally shamanic and has elements in common with Native American concepts of "soul fragmentation." I just do not see this as soul, but I am starting to see your question by coming at it from this direction.

Hanne should step in here at some point, too, because between her experiences and those of Ceanne and myself and many others, we may see more possibilities than the usual list of woundedness, fragmentation, and hysteria.

I'm breaking this into pieces because my computer wants to disconnect from the Internet unless it recognizes that I am doing something, like uploading.

Anyway, what I have just described in lunar. Now, to put a few things in perspective, I channel the feminine, not the masculine. I still more or less decline to say who and what I channel, but suffice it to say that having done Ceanne's horoscope, I totally understand that she and I have slightly different missions, not that one of us is right and the other wrong, but that we have been sent out from different places.

I can put a little more perspective on the three selves if you look at incarnation as a contract between two immortal selves and a self that is going to function consciously. Somewhere, these selves have to link up in order to have the coherence needed to express the totality of possibilities.

Our society almost does mirror us the problem when we see how much emphasis is put on Sun signs. In the West, at least, everyone is trying so hard to be an individual. We can see this in the objectives of certain forms of psychotherapy, such as individualization or even "self-realization" depending, of course, on which self one is realizing. For me, this is ego, a hugely temporary and nearly absurd but necessary personality. I take an almost totally different view of the Sun than any other astrologer I know, but I'm a healer not a psychologist trying to give people a greater sense of self, but rather someone trying to show people how to heal the wounds that are both painful and a source of disruption to the ego. If there is any question of power, then you have to look at the potential of a disease to terminate an incarnation. So, we know who has the last word and why Ceanne sees so much will in the feminine. I may see this behavior differently. I may see the disempowerment of the ego as the final argument of an unihipili that is too disappointed to try any more or so angry that it wants revenge on the offender, even though this obviously means not only the disintegration of the form but also a deepening rift or schism with the masculine.

Now to the soul, what a windfall topic for Mother's Day (even though it's already tomorrow where you are.)

The Hawaiians have a term called "aumakua." This has been translated a number of different ways, adding to confusion. On the one hand, the aumakua is a protective being, like a guardian, a white shark or white owl or even white pig. On the other hand, the aumakua is something like an "oversoul," a collective of souls.

I take a slightly different view here, too. If you actually look at the soul energy over people's heads, you can see rays of light, one of which is connected to another group of similar lights. So, the group sends one of its members into incarnation and on the level of this soul, there always is a "we." The soul can never speak as "I" because it cannot perceive reality as so idiosyncratic as to use such a term. In this reality, all does feel more like one, but I believe this feeling is quite different from the isolation of the lunar in which each feeling more or less feels driven away and not understood. So, the movement into light that people who have had near death experiences report or those who can move out of body or into fourth dimensional consciousness is a movement into understanding, acceptance, and merger.

For me, what is different about the soul is that it has awareness of and sympathy for the experiences of the incarnate person, and this is where my penance originates and where the trickiness of integration of the three selves arises.

Let's say that one does have an historic wound, the Inquisition. As a woman in those times, one could try to reduce risk by going into exile in a place where persecution was not so widespread, obviously not an option used by most . . . showing, I think, how difficult it is for the feminine to initiate action and why it is therefore never the cause . . . as Ceanne brings out in her books on "Original Cause." The feminine could try to join a religious order in the hope that monks would not burn nuns. Admitting to intercourse with the devil or denying it did not save lives, but it might have decreased the torture used to extort the confessions. My point here is not how evil the Inquisition was but how the feminine is caught between a rock and hard place with nowhere to go except away, into a dark place of exile where the enormously sensitive feeling nature would not have to endure the reality being created by the masculine. The Inquisition is the perfect illustration of the absolute worst part of the masculine-feminine schism because it took on a religious overtone and cloaked itself in all sorts of spurious arguments that continue to plague our thinking to this day. It was about control and domination, subjugation and tyranny, because the spiritual is intolerant of the psychological. That's it in a nutshell. You can find lots of other arguments, maybe some as mundane as this was the church's way to confiscate property and enrich itself, but it is still about seizing what is rightfully the property of the feminine because the truth is the masculine also cannot survive without the feminine but it doesn't know this consciously so it does not see when it exploits, plunders, and violates. It merely sees that it is imposing its concepts on an intolerant and non-accepting feminine that is exercising the will to refuse.

So, the schism or gap is enormous and it's no wonder that people can't relate to the fact that they have all these parts.

Finally, for today, the question of first wounds and past lives.

It is a reasonable assumption that if the planet representing the first wound is aspected to the Moon that the issue is ancient.

I posted this message some days ago, but it seems to have been lost

Thoughts on the three selves.

I admire that so many have time to participate to such an extend on the Board. I opened it this morning and had not been there for almost one week!

When I read Ceanne de Rohan's books I was excited because my own wounded feminine was describe in details and I suddenly understood my first wound on a deeper level. On the question on will I too do understand it as masculine as "The will of God". However, since Autumn I have studied The Kabbala as Christian mysticism, because a good friend of mine has moved to Oroe and his reference is the Kabbala. Now, it has shown that I "knew" the Kabbala from my last life, which I only recently found out. It is based on the Tree of life, which could be the Ygdrasil from the Northern Mythology. Everything from the highest in life to most everyday life issues can be explained and made clear when applied on the tree. It is not difficult to work with and give deep understanding. But - now finally come the point: from some point of view what is believed feminine in Astrology is reversed or? The tree consists of three pillars: a masculine, a feminine and the middle pillar, which is an integration of the two others. The first sephira (manifestation) on the feminine pillar is called Binah (understanding), which is the "worldmother", Saturn rules. On the second sephira on the feminine pillar Gebura (Judgment) Mars rules and on the third on the feminine pillar Mercury rules. This is very, very difficult to understand and I do not at present. But it has been explained as such for thousand of years so of course there is an understanding and explanation to be found.

I come with this example to illustrate that life is very complex indeed and the Universe even more. So Ceanne is probably right and Ingrid certainly too. One day when having meditated enough maybe an understanding will come. One little, tiny part is: God or spirit as masculine being, sends out the idea, which can come to nothing if it is not receive by the feminine. However, this feminine when sending the impulse further down can be understood as masculine and the impulse is received my the next feminine and so on.

Unfortunately my scanner is down as I suffer difficulties in the registration basis on my computer something which occurred when we tried to install a CD ROM burner. Otherwise I would have tried to send you some drawings on the tree of life because my point is so easily seen there.

Now the three selves:

Only a fortnight ago went through some overheads I used to lecture on and there at the very start I had written: The three selves: Moon, Sun and Ascendant. Honestly, I did not understand anymore what it meant bur now I have been reminded. Thank You!

The Moon I understand as the subconscious. If the Moon is not understood, and the patterns started to be shifted one can forget to become ones Sun. I believe and experience that we are born with these patterns and they have occurred in earlier lifetimes some of them from the very beginning of the incarnation circles. I have been around some from these very early times on this planet. They are very hard to shift. Most people in this world do unfortunately not understand this mechanism so part of a medical astrologer's job is to help people coming to you to but a little understanding. Some of us have to work with the subconscious of an area smaller or bigger, too. I do. I help to cleanse and shift an awful lot at time heavy, heavy stuff.

It is just so very important because the Sun will not start working before this work has begun.

The sun I understand as the conscious self. Through the Sun you reach the Soul. So Moon, Sun, Soul and if we can go further Spirit which is our eternal part of God the farther/mother because on this level there is no gender to be found.

It is hard to start working with the Sun because say like me with an Aquarius Sun I am supposed to be humanistic to work with groups and in groups, to have plenty of ideas and ability to share. Mind you when young I was extremely shy, have never been good to make friends and mix being much to critical and "betterknowing" so it is hard work to become ones Sun. The Astrologers association in Denmark fight a lot with Sunchart astrology because it is wrong and do more harm than good because we all are our Moons until we start working conscientiously in some way from the heart listening within to that great voice which knows. Do not think that Ingrid's theories are accepted here far from it, but some truth are to be found.

The soul knows. Once contact has been achieved to the soul life become easier. Unfortunately I do forget, I forget my own riches. Especially, when stressed that is excess air, I forget.

In music therapy, Ingrid's music therapy, you can be brought into a state just below the conscious level that of dreams. However, you are there with your ordinarily conscientiousness, This therapy is the fastest form of therapy I know of to come to an understanding of patterns. It is very demanding both from the clients as well as the therapist side. Other workable techniques can be shamanistic work. It is possible to do it on ones own (if you have courage enough). I got at one time hold on a book and some CD's with the drumming and went travelling on my own. It worked very well and was not scaring. I also experience when travelling in real life I am reminded of issues from earlier lifetime, issues which are relevant to problems I am working with in this lifetime. It is good too to goo into the chart and meditate on a planet or a pattern. Usually an answer to the question is given. In shamanic work sacred animals are used. They can be ever so good guides. It is but wonderful to find the animal "governing" the heart.

Actually, I believe that if we were clever enough to read was it happening in ones life each day, hour, minute no therapy would be needed. Then there would be no astrology a bit boring maybe!!!

It is very late, my plants need attention already from five in the morning so I better get some sleep. If anyone would like me to explain more or clearer please do ask I have been a little fast tonight.

Love from Hanne

Thanks, Hanne, for the nice post and support for my work. I really appreciate you and your role in these discussions because you are one of the few to have worked in depth and at length with the material in the course.

I would like to propose that while solo journeying such as you discussed is apt to elicit many insights, it is difficult until one is more experienced.

The nature of altered states can be quite surprising to those who expect other dimensions to resemble the dimension in which most of us are conscious. Since the encounters are unpredictable, it is really advisable to seek these experiences with the support of someone who knows the content and nature of the altered states. Once the journeying has become more familiar, you can shift dimensions at will. I do this very easily but I have been practicing for many lifetimes.

I might add one more note of warning. If someone wants to use drumming or some other recorded prompt to assist moving between dimensions, be sure the recording is authentic. I learned this first from a biofeedback person who insisted that the subconscious cannot hear digital music as anything more than on or off, that it is necessary to use analog recordings. I accepted this on the basis of his expertise, but your CD player will convert digital to analog. However, I learned even more from my cockatoos who unlike the parakeets are not generally interested in the same music as I like. I played several different Native American CDs quite late at night. They became very excited by one of them. I tried some experiments, playing different ones, then the one they liked. I did this even at 2:00 in the morning when they are asleep. There was something about the one recording that really evoked response in them . . . and whatever this is, the other recordings lacked it and were ignored just as they ignore my opera and harp! I now pass all the music with strong Native American influences by them first.

Hi everyone -

This is just a brief message to say that I'm back but will be keeping a low profile for a while, because I'm collecting together my notes on the BSE crisis and will be writing something for the Mad Cow Disease thread. It's a way of clearing my head of all the thoughts and questions that have been whirling around the last few months and of organising the mountain of material I've collected (my progressed Sun in Pisces is opposing progressed Saturn in Virgo!)

I do take Ingrid's point about the need for timed data when looking at an individual case history in any depth. As far as the untimed data is concerned, I'll be making general observations about the victims' charts, seeing them as members of a group, as well as individuals, and I'd also like to look at some collective issues. In posting the material on the bulletin board, I'm hoping that perhaps sometime in the future, accurate data will become available.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying reading your posts!

Love,

Jenny

Asthma bronchiale

Please help me!

I am going to do a public lecture next week together with a Medical herbalist, a biopat and me a medical astrologer.

I only got the clients date last night and as it is now I cannot see clearly why her imbalances manifest as Asthma bronchiale.

One complication further is that the Medical Herbalist studying a master degree on herbalism has used this client on an essay on Western Holistic Medicine. He gives a fine picture of history and theories, but somehow I cannot work with these theories as I find them much too academic. There is also a disagreement concerning the element air, which in WHM is considered to have the qualities light, cold and wet whereas we consider air to be light, cold and dry. I have met the same kind of qualification attributing the quality wet to air studying the Kabala. The Medical Herbalist prefers to promote the Western tradition and does not at ease with Eastern traditions. When making recipes he usually does not use Chinese nor Indian herbs as he says we used to have herbs with the same qualities in Europe and we must try to remember again. This is in a way right as we in Europe must try to come back to our roots and the wisdom we used to have.

However, I do have a problem as I have to be very sure of how I explain this case. If I manage, Ingrid's theories will be promoted in this country and this is surely much needed. Furthermore, I have 15-20 minutes to present my ideas, which make clarity even more necessary.

It may be difficult for all of you to engage in this case right now with the worlds present situation in mind. I feel personal being a fire moon that we need to dig deep and try to stand up for what we find valuable in life. I feel this much more urgent in my personal life than before September 11th.

The case
I have met the client as she was used for client in three Medical Herbalist final exams and I sat as external examiner.

I did not know the chart at that time but had the expression she was extreme excess air with a tendency to stagnated earth. I had expected Gemini Moon and Virgo or a fire Sun.

Summery of medical facts from the Medical Herbalist.
Slender, height 150 cm, weight 42 kg. Retired librarian. Single (spinster).
Suffers from acute episodes of shortness of breath (SOB), which can occur as a result of irritants: smoke, perfume, newly printed books. First attack was properly triggered by an acute respiratory infection. I think more than 20 years ago.

No history of childhood asthma or allergies and similarly no family history of asthma or allergies. As a result of medication the asthmatic episode are mild with slight (SOB) and coughing. P. often experience coughing during the night approx 04.30, which wakes her. P. suffers from constipation and indigestion and has a "poor" appetite. P. was examined by gastroscopy for a suspected ulcer in 1997. Gastroscopy showed no sign for an ulcer. P. complains of "lack of energy", light sleep, often disturbed by coughing. P. has been under treatment for hypertension since 1992: Thiazide diuretic.

Medication
Inhalation of glucocorticoids. Details can be given.

Other health problems
Diagnosed hiatus hernia
Osteoarthritis in the upper cervical vertebrae

Examination
Expiratory ronchi with mild forced expiration
Peak-flow: 400/sec, reduced to 350 with second attempt (reactive bronchioconstriction)
Pulse frequency: 84
Pulse character: Hard impact full pulse (arteriosclerotic)
Blood pressure: 180/80

Astrological observations
20.5.1932, 13.45, 55.39 N 12.37E, ASC 24.33 Virgo

Fire Moon in Sagittarius with ruler Jupiter in Leo. Ruler is almost unaspected except for a trine to Uranus. Ruler stands in second decanat of Leo where Jupiter rules. Moon in 3.house of early learning and close communication. It is part of a T-square involving Sun and Neptune as focus planet. Furthermore, the Moon has a seisisquare to Pluto, ruler of 3. house, a seisisquare to Mercury being chart ruler and Mars co ruler of 3.house and a seisisquare to Uranus.

I have looked for the first wound and can not find any before MC semi squares Jupiter at the age of 8 years.

Fire is very low if almost functioning. Sagittarius wants to stimulate its fire by learning, travelling, teaching. P. has become a librarian and studied to Jungian analyst. So she has lived out aspects of the fire moon. When digestion is that low we know there is little fire. Somehow the element of earth: Sun, Mercury, Mars in Taurus is stressing the Moon. So the earth element has become too strong which explains calcification of the blood vessels, the ostreoarthritis in the upper cervical vertebrae and the hypertension.

The element air is poor represented. Saturn in its own sign Aquarius is not very airy. I find a huge difference between Saturn in Capricorn where really earth actions and thoughts are strong giving an extreme good stamina, and then Saturn in Aquarius where it gives structure and order to a sometimes gobbling mind. So Saturn in this case supports the minds function so that clear thinking can be grounded. Being a librarian Saturn supports qualities, which will give the needed ease and systemacy to the job. This is emphasised by the septile to The Moon. I think that the seisisquare Moon Uranus is very stressing in this psychic Uranus being the most airy planet. P. loves studying, she is open minded, but there could be restlessness in the psychic, which the sleeping pattern show. The unbalanced air will be a further trouble to the digestive system.

Then the element of water is not very well represented. Venus in Cancer in the tenth house gives a kind polite nature, it has surely been of help in the career but I doubt it has given the sharing of love in close relations although it is well aspected to Mercury-Mars and Neptune. I find it must be difficult to process emotion even to feel. What about passions and love? Saturn in 5.house is not very passionate neither is Mars in Taurus in the 8. house being detriment.

What would the soul ask from this incarnation? Mercury, the chart ruler in 8.house, the heavenly messenger, bringing messages from the heavenly realms to us on planet earth. Does it not want to travel deep down in the psychic, into the underworld where fire, and passions exist where transformation of the subconscious wounds can be healed to soar high up into the heavens as the eagle? The Moon is wounded in this aspect and has possibly not been supported to solve the issue until now in this lifetime. Neptune square Moon supports this argument. May there be a lack of going deep down to feel and to process feelings? May the lack of sensing deep support the stagnation of the energy and the bodily fluids? It is as if the defence mechanisms are so highly developed that they prevent "life" from being lived.

Asthma bronchiale is a disease where the immune system is weakened. In a sense the patient is prevented from breathing in prevented from receiving the prana energy, which is essential to all life. Is it possible that the stagnation in the body, the lack of fire, the lack of processing emotion and maybe to listen within to the voice of God gradually has built up to a situation where the asthma has started?

This women is such a gentle a kind person and frustrated over her lack of energy and lack of inspiration. Unfortunately, I do not know how many years she took corticoids. I guess that the suprarenal glands are week in function counting for even more stress in the system.

Any comment will be received with gratitude as I wish to be as well prepared to this lecture as possible.

Love and thanks, Hanne

I personally feel very sad for the loss of life and property in NY, it is very bad where in some human beings are involved in such a pitiful act against Mankind. My condolences to anyone who may have lost friends or relatives to this despicable act.

I'm glad to hear Hanne and as we can back to "normal" discussion.
Ingrid, are you okay?

Hanne!
I read your post and wish participate this thema with my little opinion. Just overview her natal chart:
(And then, I make chart for 2 October because I'm read at first time your question. The Full Moon is there ...like in her chart)

Her illness is so typical of Neptunian influence. Almost what smell on something but is not something, is very typical of Neptunian - school aspect. He is in her 12th house of chronic illness (he is ruler of 6th short and not light diagnosed ill) in square to Sun - symbol vitality - so, he attack on her immunity and to pull down her vitality. There have not relation with family inheritance. The Sun afflicted in Taurus gives a tendency to quinsy, polypus of the nose, and in Pleiades eye trouble. Neptune 90 Sun is usually aspect of allergy, but must have be a few planets in the signs Gemini and Cancer respectively.

The Mercury must be in 12th and 6th as typical of badly recognition of enemy - virus - and so excessive gale on each paltry thing. At last point, Venus - which is typical to soft (open) mucous membrane: nasal or gynecological, but that not to be in her horoscope, just is a usual predisposition.

The Moon is also afflicted by Neptune. (Sagittarius between other thing, government with liver, and by reflex action in Gemini, asthma) you've see her emphatic bad process of metabolism process which have to oscillate depend on her sentiment....
The Mercury and Mars, by sign Taurus, show continuously chronic laryngitis in childhood, nothing extra.

Virgo Ascendant and Neptune (toooo.. oh yes...) this is reason why she suffer from constipation and indigestion, her intestines are inert. She subject to soft gastritis and ulcus, but never, never enough, Neptune is illusion, he create illusion and this is reason why doctor's may have a big problem with people who have Neptune in house of unconscious.

"The pathogenic influence of Neptune is most evil in the sixth house or in the sign Virgo indicating disease, or in the 12th house, which governs sorrow, trouble and self-undoing."

Tension between Moon & Sun, ego apposite desire, imbalance between masculine and feminine may result through Neptunian transcendental level (meditation, to find artificially paradise to yourself, but absence of rational consciousness) "If her parents impress her with their own worries, fears and anxieties, they will render it her subconscious with their own negative states and insure her inability to carve her own course as she grow up" (E.B.).

Ability in actual time to make change (transform) and go from beginning, is very slow and diminish. Sign Taurus never light leave or forget its habits and past (moon). They have perseverance in things, even is this absurdly for someone else. With Saturn in 5th, she not allow touch in her emotional life. And Neptune from 12th house can not let her to live in reality world.

Pluto in Cancer - "People born into this generation were born into troubled times which threatened their security and family" (softw.SF).
Virgo ASC, ME in TA, 6th house - Pisces, Neptune in Virgo 12th, SA -5th AQ - she have latent psychically blockade which she must try to solve. Psychological, she have much predisposition to allergy, asthma, and other disease as result from her bad psychically development. (But by her, illness comes through the foot - this below to element earth.)

Saturn square (hyleg) Mercury (& Mars) - long crise, illness are prolong...

She not see herself, and here in 12th Virgo house, she have experience of connect with some higher real and narrow mood. Mercury rules 12th and ASC, is in 8th where "this pattern carries out the principle of "present-in-terms-of-past"
Mercury (ruler of respiration, bronchii) is close aspect with Mars (quick and short attack ... but application Saturn...)

Three planets in 8th house: (between other there is Mars - suddenly inflammation), Uranus signify non-typical behavior by sickness because he not following typical etiology, he is already to tie with other series symptom ... this means it's novelty, and take advice, with conservative medicine take advantage of right, somebody who is true supplement and self-contained doctor, and by classic medicine find therapeut and therapy where will she be active. BUT, Neptune from 12th have power of self-recovery by psychically strength more than have other people (yeah) and as well as to be sicken.

Take care,
Astrid

Astrid,

Good to hear from you. I hope you will share your experiences of being Croatian so that we can try to understand the insanity of people destroying each other and their property.

You ask how I am. No one in the United States is all right at this time. At minimum, everyone is very sad, sad about the attacks on September 11th, sad that our revenge is so brutal, sad that people have not learned from history that war does not solve problems, sad that innocent people are victimized, and sad that the boundaries between military campaigns and health are being eroded.

Blessings,

I'm so sorry if somebody of you receive virus from my address which I received from another astro-list. I'm not expect what is happen, but I hope that this will not happen again. After all, Mars conj Uranus in AQ - Full Moon....

My girl friend have a child - a girl (Lorina) and with her, she have not easy relationship- SA conj MO opposite Mars in T-square with ME 0 VE. Her Neptune have conjunction with Sun and Jupiter in Capricorn sign. She don't give up from herself wishes, and never be in calm. This child have kidney of horseshoe form as well as her mother. When she had 5-6 months, she have inflammation of kidneys (Mars in Libra) She haven't any planet in water sign, except Pisces ASC.

Her father die in august, 1999 by tumor on brain. (prog. SA conj nat.Moon). I think, that child feel strong fear of loneliness because she born when is her father become ill and has been hospitalize several time. (Her elder sister is more stabile, Gemini Sun (ME in Taurus 5th house), Asc Sagg (Jupiter in Cancer 7th), Virgo Moon). Both have Moon opp Mars.

Her mother ask me medical advice, but that what I see in child chart is not enough for any advice. I think that haven't problem in next year or later, though is possible some incident with legs. Her mother is worry because application Saturn to IC. In mother chart is evidently *hard* aspect Pluto at MC square her Virgo Sun&Pluto in natal 7th house. But after conversation with her about job, home situation, her thoughts about change home, she recall something. She will back her maiden surname. This is great story of t-Pluto (which himself threaten, have more influence on her family, her daughters, friends.) Oh yeah ...

Her mother work with Reiki this year, (which help her to calm young daughter) and go to astrology seminar but she prefer more much astro-psychology than astro-medicine as me.
date her child: Lorina, 14 January 1997 09:45 CET -1:00 Rijeka, 45N19; 14E26
I must solve a problem with my Virgo ASc and Saturn in first inconj Jupiter, if I wish grow up in astro-medicine. Tomorrow I go to library and take some medicine books about bodily structure, because I not know what is endocrine glands & how work, what is pineal gland, what is what and why in body structure. and without that here have not understanding symbolical meaning of planets. How can give advice if know nothing how work our body. etc etc.

Just I think about vitamins and appropriate planet. Or, have anywhere any astrological study or article about group of blood (I mean O, A, AB or B - I have O Rh+ group blood) ?

I wish utilize aspect T-Uranus to natal Mercury ... I feel a little different as before ever. If in my post have grammatical errors, please let me know where is my errors, because all of text I write without translator.
WOW I'm admire myself.

Many blessings
to people who support me
Astrid

Astrid,

This is just to say hi, and to let you know that I've printed out your case study of Lorina. I hope you get some feedback from somebody soon!

I'm glad you are still writing for the bulletin board.

Best wishes,

Jenny

Hi, Ingrid and all ..

So, we will work or not? - Now is time to work! he he he ... where are the kind people?

I'm meet girl which have many problem with her thinking, feeling, and scare herself psychological.

When I make her chart, first of all, she haven't earth element in her chart, but more air and water element. Her problem run when she have intimate friend after him she has been very worried about venereal disease. After medical view which give negative result, she was keep in mind fear. At the end she stay by home, stop driving car, she have many psychological problem like to faint away, suffocation ... She break the school.

She born 30 Sep 1981, 15.50 CET -1.00 - Doboj, Bosnia 44N44; 18E05

When run war here in old Yugoslavia, (1990-92) her family was escape from BiH to my place. She now have psychotherapy, and she is better not at all. I speak with her and when I ask about her parents if she have with they some problem, she say - not. Of course, this answer I have on many problem. But after our dialogue which was prolong, we have unpleasant visit. Her mother ring on my door and she was so, so worry about daughter. wow.... this scare me. Her mother are Cancer Sun, and my client is they only child. I told her, about childhood, war, Sun-Saturn, and suggest her, as Libra sign, that she must take life in herself hands because she IS SAFE in this world. She is not silly, and she must change her food. She is vegetarian and in her case, she elevation air element... Even color of clothes and what she cloat, is so air, light what is not good for strong air element.

She look so great, tall, thin, elegant, she have relationship with boy who are like her, but she have many problem with his mother. He born 30 Sep 1979, 15.50 CET -1.00 Rijeka, 14E26, 45N19.

For me was nice when we talk about her and her family, nothing have to say, no problem .... I think that her chart is wrong, but when I read from her chart about her friend, all what I see and ask have been RIGHT ... wow ... and at end, what can I think? What is right or wrong?

Oh, when I told about strong air element and possibility to be ill by diabetes, she say, many from her family have diabetes, and her father after stress of war has had diabetes (is grammatical wrong?)

thank you, nice day
Astrid
from Croatia

Astrid,

I haven't visited this board in months. It was so inactive, I thought no one was interested.

First, let's work with the obvious. You presented a psychological account of someone with four planets in the 8th house and eight planets in Libra and Scorpio. You also suspected the chart is not right . . . and Saturn is in the 7th which conforms to the rule that one must look for the error before interpreting.

So, I will propose that you discover the error before anyone goes further.

This said, I will counsel you and others to honor what the client presents. If she is afraid of contracting a sexually transmitted disease, we must address the concern and not try to override her fears by assurances that this is nothing to fear and that intimacy should be enjoyable. She is obviously committed to spending a lifetime working on relationship and the issues that come with relationship. Moreover, it is entirely possible that she went insane because of a venereal disease in a previous life. I am saying this because she presents the symptoms and her Moon is almost unaspected.

I am worried that you are not actually a student in my course, just a guest on this board, and you are not applying the material in the course. I do not, for example, associate diabetes with the air element and would advise everyone to exercise caution when suggesting to someone who is asymptomatic that your words are likely to be remembered for many years to come and may merely add to the anxiety rather than contribute to healthier living habits.

Dear Ingrid,
thank you for responding, I am afraid because of silent here ... and have much sense of guilty, because I'm not your student, (and surely cannot never be) and haven't anything to return to you, except deep thankfulness ...

I agree with you, and she has almost break up its own condition, she pass herself first Uranus quarter over Ascendant and she need break up with old believe or old opinion or self-punishment. but there are her parents who produced the anxiety and her sense of guilt. They must know ALL her movement, where is now, when she come to home .. all to in minute ... strong control of her mother, and I can't speak with her mother or father. BTW.. She come to me (second time) after session with women who has fortune teller (palmistry) and beginner in astrology, and that IS sadly, because this women deem that she may claims all "the truth" without regardless of outcome for the client. Dijana was so frighten when ask me to clarify her solar return - because, this women made to her so negative prediction - but I was remain on her problem with which she has confront right now and try bring to balance the interpretation with more positive meaning. Oh, the stone is fall from her heart.

Ingrid, I know enough in my own experience how may words to be remembered, and sadly how long. I try do not make any rigid claims that may be stressful to her or any clients, and I'm in the phase to rhyme and write the Code of Ethic for my astrological association "Saturn", because I see damage from astrologers and this result with disdain of astrology. I must to be done with the Code to half of September. (I need any help, suggest, advice, example).

At the end of my first session with Dijana, I'm casual and incidentally touch her kidneys without my opinion about diabetes, and then she had surprised me when she told me how many members of her family have diabetes.

I was clear up her misgiving about diabetes, but I'm not sure that is possible that she went insane or that may to eliminate completely diabetes from her life. Her Moon is not good integrated with the other functions of personality, and I agree, this may conduce fear of involvement or fear of being out of control.
Also, the role of the mother (Moon) is not to retard a child's growth but to protect without inhibiting development. The Moon is concerned with instinctive emotional survival, especially in 8th and Scorpio, but survival is not growth. Somebody write that the Moon is like a watchdog, always looking out for strangers, always on guard to protect, ....and then if you become so concerned with maintaining the status quo to the degree that you fear all new experiences that enter life, emotional breakdown occurs. Her Moon & Mercury at so close, suggest issue that must be confronted, like two people not only the mother & daughter or the father - daughter. Is conjunction between Saturn and Sun one of index to depressive disorder? Is depression as anger turned inwards?

She haven't problem with intimacy in relationship, nor venereal disease, here has deficiency of self-reliance, self-direction and support in own decision. She have licensed psychotherapist, and Dijana say that my interpretation are similar with her psychotherapist. This was couraged me. J

I'm so worry about her relationship and self-defeating, need for dependency, losing self identity and to drag to compels the partner domination - Saturn in 7th conj Sun. She have problem with mother of her partner and are not completely ready to confront with the issues that come with relationship. Eh, there I must working with withe gloves on my hand.

with love
Astrid